Gosh I know my brother said something about what happened in the book not happening in the movie or something like that in that scene... damn now I can't remember.

Actually, the movie was pretty accurate about that battle. A couple pages later, Tolkien explains how Pippen's sword was forged by the knights fighting the Witch-King, so it was fused with magic designed to kill him.

"...And when Pippen struck the Dark Creature, he cut the sinews that held his invisible flesh together..."

Aside from the whole.. green wave of dead warriors flowing in and killing everything. :)

Was there the Dead Army in the book? I was under the impression that it was just 3,000 refugees from the towns plundered by the pirates...I'm too lazy to get through the book and find out if I'm correct.

No, the Oathbreakers never made it to Minas Tirith in the book.

Replacing them with a gigantic army of ghosts was the best choice Jackson made. Tolkien was a good writer, but he's not all that talented with drama and action. I mean, how can 3,000 help a battle against a forced larger than 200,000?

Same principle with the battle at Helm's Deep. It made more sense that Jackson had the Lorien Elves come to the aid of the fortress, even though in the book it was Erkenbrand and his army. I think the movie version of it works though because it amplifies the union between Men and Elves, even if it's directed at an old bond. Plus, we were allowed to see Haldir again, and him dying added more drama to the whole battle. If it were Erkenbrand there instead, would the audience even know him enough to care about him? Not really.

Tolkien depended way too much on the stupdity and moral of the orcs.

I mean, how can 3,000 help a battle against a forced larger than 200,000?

Gosh, I dunno, how did 2 small Hobbits penetrate into the depths of Mordor? They didn't really have a choice. Fight or be conquered. The fact that it was so few against so many actually increases the drama of the whole ordeal.

Tolkien depended way too much on the stupdity and moral of the orcs.

How so?

And as far as the actaul question, I suppose it would have been Eowyn that really finished him off.

Gosh, I dunno, how did 2 small Hobbits penetrate into the depths of Mordor

That wasn't a fight;the hobbits just simply went through an unguarded tunnel and donned orc-garb while they were all occupied.

How so?

The Horn at Helm's Deep apparently scared them into a practical comma, they started losing when the Witch-King died, and they actually allowed 3,000 soldiers to compleatly ruin their back flank. Sounds like they really needed intelligence and morale.

Yet, we've known all along about this aspect of orcs. They are rather dim-witted, cowardly, uncooperative, cruel, and they don't care about much except themselves. It is their nature. That doesn't make the fight "cheap" or "unrealistic". Here's why.

The Horn at Helm's Deep apparently scared them into a practical comma

As I mentioned above, orcs are a very cowardly and selfish race. So what are they doing at this battle? Well, they (along with the wild men of Dunland, who were also present in the Battle of the Hornburg) have had their minds altered by Saruman. He can do that, you know. I believe there is a scene in the movie in which Saruman says something to the effect of "you do not know fear, you do not know pain, you not know.. etc. In other words, they aren't fighting because they "believe in the cause" or anything like that. As we know, they only care about themselves. When Theoden goes with Gandalf and Aragorn to Isengard after the battle, he manages to somewhat "enchant" some of the men with his voice. This enchantment is shattered by Theoden's resistence. The horn could certainly be thought of as having the same properties. It momentarily broke the enslaving enchantment of Saruman and they, in a way, came to their senses(meager though they are) and their true cowardliness came out.

they started losing when the Witch-King died

Same deal here. On their own, orcs and the like have no motivation for fighting this battle. The defeat of such a powerful figure as the Witch King(at the hands of a woman and hobbit, for that matter) would have certainly been very frightening. Rather then continue fighting, some would rather save themselves and flee. But not all of them did. The battle did not end so quickly as it did in the movie, and fighting continued for all of that day.

and they actually allowed 3,000 soldiers to compleatly ruin their back flank

First there were 6,000 Rohirrim, a around 2,000 men from costal towns of Gondor that came with Aragorn and his small company of Arnor. Second, it is not as if all 180,000 to 200,000 of Mordor's forces were between them and Minas Tirith. They simply wouldn't fit. In fact, the majority of Mordor's forces never even saw any action. Thirdly, by this time, The Witch King had fallen, allowing the army of Minas Tirith, led by Prince Imrahil and his company of some 2,000, to enter the fray. The number of men defending Minas Tirith is vague, but it could certainly have been anywhere from 10,000 to 30,000.

Considering that the numbers are not so uneven as they may at first seem, the huge shift of momentum to the free peoples, and simply the superiority of Men(specifically those whose blood is linked to that of the Men who came to Middle-earth from Numenor) to orcs and the Easterlings, it is not *as* hard to believe that they won the battle.

Obviously, it is still not an easy victory. That's what makes the battle worth reading about. When reading this type of literature, one must allow his mind to accept the extraordinary.

Wow, you really did your research on this. Sarumon's voice affecting his orcs-never would have thought of that.

Still, in a sense I was right:moral. They just lost it when they got back control of their minds.

I thought the force was more like a million? I guess it depends on whether Sauron wanted to send MOST of his force out or a LITTLE, considering that he felt the need to keep 600,000 orcs in Mordor.

Are you sure the dead didn't make it to Minas Tirith? I know about the 3,000 or so, but I was under the impression that the dead were with them.

For the record, it was Merry, not Pippin, who helped Eowyn kill the Witch-King.