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Tip for Spirituality, Religion, Theology, and Philosophy
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Provided by: bwgl
Mar 24, 2008
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The concept of "perfect" in terms of the garden of eden,and heaven
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By "Perfect", most Christians would define it like this: Is absolutely flawless,without mistake or sin Is at an omega point,can not reach any higher level Exist only in circumstances where god allows it At first,this may seem perfectly reasonable and non-contradicting,but if you really think this one out,it goes to an underly sad realization. Let me take this to the two points. Eden-A time when everything in the beginning was "perfect",flawless,nothing wrong. However, just how perfect? Did it simply mean perfect as in no sin or flaws? Or does it go perfect do every level? Perfect to every temperature,every tree,every position.Every,thought? I think that if everything were truly perfect,then it would have to stay perfect. Meaning if Adam and eve were not to have eaten the apple of knowledge,they would have to remain the animals they once were.I guess they could still have children,the animals of the land could still be herbivores,and everything could have stayed peaceful,however when problems in the current world arise,how would this be fixed in the "perfect" world? (Especially with Adam and eve not even knowing their naked,they wouldn't be knowledgeable of these problems,would that mean they wouldn't exist? No. ) By "problems" I mean with the real world relating to this mythical world,it would have to relate its problems as well. If were still capable of production,how would overpopulation never come about,this would happen even quicker if humans can't die? If animals still have to waste,wouldn't waste in the garden make it less "perfect",and if not,where would the food go,would they even still have to eat? What about the food supply,sure its large,but if humans aren't going to die,they will populate quicker,and hence consume more,unless they don't need to eat.Would fruit magically reappear? And also,if humans can't starve,so don't need to eat,can't die,and most importantly can't CREATE or THINK without knowledge,(would they ever have put on clothes if they realized they were cold,then why would they create fire,or need spears,or ever come to computers and planes), wouldn't they simply be self-aware animals taking up space? What would they do,so much could ruin "perfection",they couldn't have paper without ruining trees,they couldn't have invention,again, would we be just mere animals serving our one purpose:admiring and serving god?(And how could we even serve him,we couldn't build churches or burn alters,then we'd have to destroy something,would we just,bow?) I don't see how we could possibly have a meaningful existence in a 'perfect' garden,we'd be mere robots simply bowing and worshiping its creator,nothing more.Ironically,thats how Zeus wanted humans to exist,only serving the gods,nothing else. Now I'm going to get into 'heaven': The bible says heaven is like nothing we can never imagine. Now I'm going to try to understand the points about it the bible tells us. According to the bible,heaven is perfect,we never age,never die,never feel pain,and love serving our master.It is ABSOLUTELY perfect. HOWEVER,in that sense,EVERYTHING in heaven must be perfect,EVERYTHING. EVERY action,EVERY thought,EVERY movement,EVERY second,nanosecond of our existence.This means,that heaven must be a highpoint in all of being. If a movement or stance or thought, can be better than the other,then that one must exist until a better one exist. Then that one and that one will be overrided until absolute perfection is achieved. However,if every thought,stance,action is perfect,that must mean any one other than the ones existing right now must be more perfect than any other,thus thinking or doing those ones will ruin your perfect stance/thought,so the only way for you to guarantee that gods absolute perfection wont be ruined,is if you stand still.It will reach the top of the mountain,everybody,time itself will have to stand still if the universe reaches an omega point,because if it moves,it will ruin it,it will be less perfect that the perfection before it and not be absolute anymore. This however,is a sad truth of a fate,if heaven truly exist. This in itself is pretty much the same as Christians don't wish to believe:Death. Death is in which your not thinking,not breathing,simply not being. This is the same in heaven if "absolute perfection" is to be achieved. Even god himself would have to encapsulate his existence if he makes everything "perfect".I think ancient people that made religion to comfort their insecurities about death knew they it couldn't be avoided,so they simply and unknowingly found a new way to accept and perceive it: Heaven,perfection,happiness. Its the same if you look at it.The truth is: Perfection as a concept and state of being ,it is the same as death. |
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There are 23 Replies:
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Message
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Person and Time
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I believe that Eden was mowed down to make room for the 453 starbuck's and Costco |
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likejojonoand
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Mar 24, 2008
(47 days and 21 hours ago)
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you just destroyed the whole point of my argument with that statement. |
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bwglade26
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Mar 24, 2008
(47 days and 21 hours ago)
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You have found the major fissures of the christian religion. A common explination for adam and eve is that perfect things can be corrupted. But for some reason it is said that this concept doesnt apply to god. Its double standards. The garden of eden and man as a perfect being in the conventional meaning are impossible, i just wish that christains could realise this. Another way arround it is to say that its simply a story to teach us about something. This opens up the arguement that if this is simply a story then everything in the bible could just be a story. There has as yet to my knowledge a plausible explination to these questions that doesnt bury the religion deeper. For your second part, i have often thought about it. If everything in heaven is perfect then one looming fact would be that you would nolonger be yourself. Without biological factors such as hunger and tierdness you are nolonger you not to mention the perfection that we as humans are unable to acheive. To be perfect beings we would have to be different to who we are and then we are not realy the ones in heaven are we. There is also the question of the point of heaven, if you know everything that there is to know and you are always perfectly happy then what do you do all day? there wouldnt be a need to move you wouldnt have to think you woul simply be nothing. There is also the issue of other people, it is often said that in heaven you will be greeted by everyone you have known in your life. For this to happen then you would meet people who are not infact dead yet and so the whole affair would be a mear fadrication and thus imperfect. An arguemnt against this would be that it doenst happen, but then if i wasnt in heaven with my wife then how could it be perfect? Perfection as a concept and state of being ,it is the same as death. Fantastic line. |
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helikaon
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Mar 24, 2008
(47 days and 21 hours ago)
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And you really can't apply this to modern day anymore. Today we have science and technology to "help us" find out what we can do to "avoid" death. If it was as simple as "avoiding death" then the religion would have died off long ago. People aren't as stupid as they once where because we have more accept to education and more access to tools that will help us to discover what is true and what is not. Death and "perfection" cannot be the same. In death you do not do anything (not even exist). In order to "perfect" (or achieve a state of perfection) one must be alive and able to function. To even know what "perfection" is you must be alive and make that judgment otherwise you won't know what is "prefect" or not. |
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Forte Lambardi
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Mar 24, 2008
(47 days and 19 hours ago)
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"Would fruit magically reappear?" Once again, I am gong to bring up the point that you NEED TO READ THE BIBLE because this question could be answered in the following verse: Genesis 2: 8,9,15 "Further, Jehovah God planted a garden in Eden towards the east, and there he put the man whom he formed. Thus, Jehovah God made to grow out of the ground every tree desirable to one's sight and good food and also the tree of life in the middle of the garden and the tree of knowledge of good and bad...And Jehovah God proceeded to take the man and settle him in the garden of Eden to cultivate it and to take care of it." Another problem is that you define, for us, the terms of what prefect is, but then you go off on a tangent of different ideas of what perfection is so that it doesn't make a whole lot of sense. If you were going to define, for us, the meaning of "perfection" then maybe you ought to have stuck to that set, or you should have made it clear that you're going by a completely different set of what "perfect" means. |
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Forte Lambardi
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Mar 24, 2008
(47 days and 19 hours ago)
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We would be robots without free will, yes. That is why the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil was placed in Eden (metaphorical-or-not debate aside for the moment). Humanity had the choice to obey God and refrain from eating it, or to disobey and eat it - and eating it would allow a lot more wicked choices to become availible. Secondly... I would very much like to know from where you have plucked your idea of the "Christian" heaven. For example you say "The bible says heaven is like nothing we can never imagine." but I'm quite sure that it does not say that anywhere. In fact it seems you have done little to no research into what the Bible truly says on the subject of the afterlife. Although perhaps you cannot be blamed - as a lot of Christians remain similiarly woefully ignorant. The Bible speaks of an eternal afterlife, not in the realm of Heaven, but on a 'New Earth' in a city known as the 'New Jerusalem'. For further information, read what Jesus had to say on the subject in the gospels, and what John saw in his vision in the book of Revelation. Then, come back and continue this discussion. Otherwise you cannot hope to intelligently discuss the Christian idea of heaven in relation to perfection. |
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Traditionalist Evangelist
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Mar 24, 2008
(47 days and 18 hours ago)
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Fantastic line. Thank you. Death and "perfection" cannot be the same. In death you do not do anything (not even exist). In order to "perfect" (or achieve a state of perfection) one must be alive and able to function. To even know what "perfection" is you must be alive and make that judgment otherwise you won't know what is "prefect" or not. I'm saying if in perfection,if you become so perfect that you have to stop yourself from moving or thinking,perfectly or your ruin it,then your pretty much dead. Once again, I am gong to bring up the point that you NEED TO READ THE BIBLE because this question could be answered in the following verse: That doesn't answer that.Nor does it answer how perfection could stay perfect and avoid the "imperfection" that comes through time.Would time itself not go by? We would be robots without free will, yes. That is why the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil was placed in Eden (metaphorical-or-not debate aside for the moment). Humanity had the choice to obey God and refrain from eating it, or to disobey and eat it - and eating it would allow a lot more wicked choices to become available. If Adam and Eve hadn't eaten it,it would be the same as have never had it.Assuming their children and every generation after never consumes from the tree,we would remain like robots,and slaves to our creator. I would very much like to know from where you have plucked your idea of the "Christian" heaven. For example you say "The bible says heaven is like nothing we can never imagine." but I'm quite sure that it does not say that anywhere. I think it says that SOMEWHERE,just forget where.(In revelations I think) Also my image of heaven that I'm describing is simply to demonstrate the issue of anything being 'perfect.' |
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bwgl
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Mar 25, 2008
(47 days and 14 hours ago)
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In death you do not do anything (not even exist). Of course you still exist, you are materially still there. The mummies of egypt still exist they are just considered dead. In a perfect world you might as well be dead because there would be nothing for you to do its a very similar state of being. To even know what "perfection" is you must be alive and make that judgment otherwise you won't know what is "prefect" or not. I do not beleive that for something to be perfect it has to be regognised to be so. Perfection is a quality that will be there wheather or not somebody is there to see it We would be robots without free will, yes Problem with this you see TE is that if we were not to eat the fruit you say that we would be robots without free will. Well that means that before we did then we were robots without free will and thus we could not have chosen to eat the fruit. From this the only conclusion would be that god made us do it. And following on we should not be punished with everything god lumped on us like painfull child birth. As I said, any explination just puts you deeper in. but I'm quite sure that it does not say that anywhere. Sory TE but your wrong on this one. Eph 3:20 beyond all we could ask for or even think of The Bible speaks of an eternal afterlife, not in the realm of Heaven, but on a 'New Earth' in a city known as the 'New Jerusalem'. Your right and wrong on this one. Pe 3:57 God will create a new heaven and earth: V13 Present heaven and earth will be destroyed with fire: V10 Rev 2:7 Tree of life in the paradise of God I guess ill have to reiterate something said in this ost previously. In fact it seems you have done little to no research into what the Bible truly says on the subject of the afterlife Then, come back and continue this discussion. Otherwise you cannot hope to intelligently discuss the Christian idea of heaven in relation to perfection. ;) |
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helikaon
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Mar 25, 2008
(47 days and 13 hours ago)
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One must ask; what is perfection? Perfection is subjective to one's own opinion. True, there may very well be a limit(I don't think there will ever be a limit, personally) but people strive to achieve a different level of this so-called perfection. Perfection for me would be to achieve happiness, strive to be a great person, and study Philosophy. Now, perfection for someone else may be the total opposite, or just a different "level" of perfection. I personally don't think there is such a thing as perfection, unless you set certain personal objectives for you to achieve what YOU deem perfect. However, perfection as an objective truth; not likely. I believe nobody can be truly perfect in anything they achieve; perfection can only be defined by the person striving for it. |
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The Prime
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Mar 25, 2008
(47 days and 12 hours ago)
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For correct Bible understanding one must not make the common error of thinking that everything called “perfect” is so in an absolute sense, that is, to an infinite degree, without limitation. Perfection in this absolute sense distinguishes only the Creator. Perfection of any other person or thing is relative, not absolute. (Compare Psa 119:96.) That is, a thing is “perfect” according to, or in relation to, the purpose or end for which it is appointed by its designer, or the use to which it is to be put by its receiver or user. The very meaning of perfection requires that there be someone who decides when “completion” has been reached, what the standards of excellence are, what requirements are to be satisfied, and what details are essential. Ultimately, God the Creator is the final arbiter of perfection. To view this as incompatible with perfection is to ignore the meaning of the term, substituting a personal concept that goes contrary to fact. God’s intelligent creatures are granted free moral agency, the privilege and responsibility of making a personal decision as to the course they will take. (Deu 30:19, 20; Jos 24:15. It must be remembered that perfection as it relates to humans is a relative perfection, limited to the human sphere. Though created perfect, Adam could not go beyond the limits assigned him by his Creator; he could not eat dirt, gravel, or wood without suffering ill effects; if he tried to breathe water instead of air, he would drown. Similarly, if he allowed his mind and heart to feed on wrong thoughts, this would lead to entertaining wrong desires and finally bring sin and death. Jam 1:14, 15; compare Ge 1:29; Matt 4:4. To have no true concept of how the Bible describes heaven or hell is another means of err in your assumption as it relates to perfection. Peace |
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savusadarda
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Mar 25, 2008
(47 days and 10 hours ago)
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Indeed perfection is relative to the subject in one sense because an atribute in one thing would not neccasarily denote perfection in another. But realy perfection means simply without flaws, and a thing without flaws is unable to gain flaws of its own occord otherwise it would not be perfect. Something would have had to corrupt the perfection, like a perfect food stuff is corrupted by rot not from its self but from exposure to air, moisture etc. But in this instance the snake would not be able to break the spell of perfection because to be perfect they would obey the laws of god to the letter. Not to mention that the snake being in he perfect garden would have had to be perfect himself. So what was it that corrupted them? |
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helikaon
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Mar 25, 2008
(47 days and 10 hours ago)
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"I'm saying if in perfection,if you become so perfect that you have to stop yourself from moving or thinking,perfectly or your ruin it,then your pretty much dead." If you were perfect you WOULD NOT need to stop yourself and consider every action seeing as you HAVE ACHIEVED a sense of perfection already, and you KNOW what actions are perfect and what actions are not. You say what you did in sense that YOU DO NOT know what is perfect and what is not. Your argument STILL does not make sense. "That doesn't answer that.Nor does it answer how perfection could stay perfect and avoid the "imperfection" that comes through time.Would time itself not go by?" No, but that does answer the quote that I cited. Also, I already offered you an example of how perfection can be corrupted (or made imperfect) by outside stimuli. It seems that people can't comprehend the fact that something that is prefect can be corrupted. If not that, then we have to go into the argument of what "true perfection" is. Most of those kinds of arguments I see are usually related to what one things SHOULD BE perfect opposed to what is really, in fact, perfect. "But in this instance the snake would not be able to break the spell of perfection because to be perfect they would obey the laws of god to the letter. Not to mention that the snake being in he perfect garden would have had to be perfect himself." That does not make sense. In this case you assume Eden was created perfect (although there was no mention of it actually being perfect), and you also claim that the snake would have to be perfect in order to be in a perfect place. How is it that a perfect item is corrupted (or made imperfect) by another item if that other item is perfect? Perfect*Perfect=Perfect^2 Perfect*NonPerfect=P rfect*NonPerfect (which is just plain not perfect). Then again, "perfect" and "corrupt" seem to be relative to one's perspective of "perfect" and "non perfect". "Perfection of any other person or thing is relative, not absolute." That statement, to me, just destroyed the whole argument. Most of what you said, bw, was relative from WHAT YOU THOUGHT should be perfect. Unless yo were able to prove what is prefect, absolutely, then you could not tell us, accurately enough, what would, theoretically, go on whilst achieving perfection. |
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Forte Lambardi
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Mar 25, 2008
(47 days and 9 hours ago)
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hel, the poster said the Bible says Heaven is beond what we can imagine. The verse you quoted says God is beyond what we can imagine. I have no doubt that Heaven is indeed beyond what we could imagine; I just take issue with people quoting from the Bible-that-isn't-the-Bible. Yes, I know the whole new heaven, new earth deal... My point was human beings will dwell only on the New Earth... so New Heaven does not have much bearing upon this conversation. |
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Traditionalist Evangelist
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Mar 25, 2008
(47 days and 9 hours ago)
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So what was it that corrupted them? Again you are not allowing the arbiter of perfection-God-to determine what perfect is and is not by saying "But realy perfection means simply without flaws," That part is true, but then you go on to put this unscriptural spin on it by saying "and a thing without flaws is UNABLE to gain flaws of its own occord otherwise it would not be perfect." That is untrue. Why? Because the thing spoken of has the means to do the right thing 100% of the time. However, they used thier free will to chose a contrary course. By first dwelling on a wrong desire to the point of eventually acting upon them. Adam had the ability to dismiss those thoughts, rejecting them for the error that they were and moved on to other things, but Adam allowed his mind and heart to feed on those wrong thoughts, this lead to entertaining wrong desires and finally action bringing sin and death. Without free will Adam would be a robot, an atomatom, an appliance, unable to make decisions, unable to love God, unable to be a real person. Jam 1:14, 15. Pinnochio or a real boy. Peace |
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savusadarda
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Mar 25, 2008
(47 days and 9 hours ago)
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sav, Do you believe the Earth was literally created in six days, as per Genesis? Do you believe in the literal historicity of Noah, the Flood, and the Ark? |
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Traditionalist Evangelist
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Mar 25, 2008
(47 days and 8 hours ago)
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Do you believe the Earth was literally created in six days, as per Genesis? Genesis does not teach that the earth was created in 6 literal 24 hour days. And yes, I do believe the Genesis account, in the way that the Bible allows for the length of a literal "day" to be. Do you believe in the literal historicity of Noah, the Flood, and the Ark? Yes. And I have studied much about it to reach this conclusion. Peace |
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savusadarda
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Mar 25, 2008
(47 days and 8 hours ago)
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Interestingly enough, the entropic state of perfection is perfect inactivity. perfect inactivity rests in perfect nonexistance. How appropriate is it that the perfection of the Garden of Eden is nonexistant? |
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Recalescence
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Mar 25, 2008
(47 days and 7 hours ago)
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What exactly have you studied to decide the Flood happened? |
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Traditionalist Evangelist
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Mar 25, 2008
(47 days and 7 hours ago)
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The most authentic source, the Bible. However, other information has been considered also. In addressing the flood portion; Gensis says: “All the springs of the vast watery deep were broken open and the floodgates of the heavens were opened.” (Gen 7:11) It also tells how on the second “day” Jehovah made an expanse about the earth, and this expanse (called “Heaven”) formed a division between the waters below it, that is, the oceans, and the waters above it. (Gen 1:6-8) The waters suspended above the expanse evidently remained there from the second “day” of creation until the Flood. There was a time when the oceans were smaller and the continents were larger than they are now, as is evidenced by river channels extending far out under the oceans. It should also be noted that scientists have stated that mountains in the past were much lower than at present, and some mountains have even been pushed up from under the seas. It is said that there is ten times as much water by volume in the ocean as there is land above sea level. Dump all this land evenly into the sea, and water would cover the entire earth, one and one-half miles deep. Sea fossils are found at the highset mountain tops. Speaking of fossil record, all around the world, species of mammals became extinct all at once. At the same time, there was a sudden change of climate. That I believe was when the water canopy fell as a flood to the earth surface. So, after the floodwaters fell, but before the raising of mountains and the lowering of seabeds and before the buildup of polar ice caps, there was more than enough water to cover the then smaller mountains as Genesis says. The proof that this was a sudden and climactic event is the fact that even the green grass the animals were eating was quickly deepfrozen in their mouths and stomachs, where it has been discovered in modern times. That is consistent with what the Bible says about the Flood. Stories of a universal flood are preserved in the folklore of scores of peoples confirming that it is no coinsidence. When the peoples of Babel were dispersed they took some version of the story of the global flood with them. For me, Noah's flood does not rest on traditions of men, on the folklore of primitive people, or on geologic and archaeological findings. The most compeling evidence is what is stated in the Bible. That later worshipers of God from beginning to end accepted the Flood as genuine history; they did not regard it as a myth. Isaiah, Jesus, Paul, and Peter were among those who referred to it as something that really happened. (Isa 54:9; Matt 24:37-39; Heb 11:7; 1 Pet 3:20, 21; 2 Pet 2:5; 3:5-7) Peace |
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savusadarda
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Mar 25, 2008
(47 days and 6 hours ago)
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If you were perfect you WOULD NOT need to stop yourself and consider every action seeing as you HAVE ACHIEVED a sense of perfection already, and you KNOW what actions are perfect and what actions are not. You say what you did in sense that YOU DO NOT know what is perfect and what is not. Your argument STILL does not make sense. This would not be true perfection.For if this was true,the person would be very capable of sinning and disobeying,unless we don't have freewill in heaven. Perfection is subjective to one's own opinion. In my opinion,true perfection is one that has reached an ultimate state and can't be removed. If the garden of eden was truly perfect,it wouldn't be able to un-perfect itself,free will and the choice to become knowledgeable itself should have been a flaw,without it we would be dumb and un-thinking,but overall happy. We would be robots without free will, yes. That is why the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil was placed in Eden (metaphorical-or-not debate aside for the moment). Humanity had the choice to obey God and refrain from eating it, or to disobey and eat it - and eating it would allow a lot more wicked choices to become availible. Again,pick your poison,if we had eaten it (Assuming in this case it exist and we did) we would have become wise but sinful.Would a robot that has the choice to disobey really just ignore it? If we hadn't eaten it,we would be happy,but overall un-knowledgeable,we would be robots with emotions and feelings,but still no free-will.The choice to eat the apple wasn't through free-will,but simply curiosity and instinct. If humans really did have free will before eating the apple,they could still kill each other,steal,lie, and sin with nothing stopping them,but yet they couldn't. eating or not eating the apple was the only choice they could make. For correct Bible understanding one must not make the common error of thinking that everything called “perfect” is so in an absolute sense, that is, to an infinite degree, without limitation. Perfection in this absolute sense distinguishes only the Creator. If perfection doesn't reach its highest point it can un-do itself. If a organism becomes the strongest smartest creature on earth,but if it has ONE flaw,imperfection, it can manifest and destroy the sense of perfection that being once had.The perfection your implying,doesn't exist anyway,its BECAUSE everybody has a different image of perfection that perfection doesn't exist. Even in the eyes of god,Perfection can still be demoralizing to some. Yes, I know the whole new heaven, new earth deal... My point was human beings will dwell only on the New Earth... so New Heaven does not have much bearing upon this conversation. Oh,and is this new earth supposed to be perfect? try, just TRY to think what it would be like on a perfect earth. You wouldn't need to eat because you wouldn't starve. You wouldn't need to sleep because you wouldn't get tired. You wouldn't need to breath if you don't need air.You would need nothing,their would be NO POINT Yes. And I have studied much about it to reach this conclusion. Oh really? Tell me,if two of every of the millions of species on earth somehow fit on a ark,a vessel so large it would be impossible for someone of biblical times to construct, that avoided a flood the altitude of the highest mountain mount everest and somehow didn't suffocate,starve,and then after inbreed, then HOW did animals like kangaroos,penguins,and armadillo get on the ark and then back rather than drown and leave America, Antarctica, or new Zealand (assuming according to the catholic church,Pangaea is Completely false)? It says in the bible it flooded the WHOLE world,and taking the bible as literately as the pope does,this means the whole earth and not just the Mediterranean world? Again,I restate my point in a different way:If we take perfection as the highest point of any one or things being,it means the end. Nothing is above perfection,not happiness,not wisdom,not creation. If something is perfect it fulfills its purpose and no longer needs to exist.(We would hence fulfill our purpose of serving god,he would be served,and anything after that is gods desire) |
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bwgl
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Mar 25, 2008
(47 days and 5 hours ago)
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b, I am aware of the perfection paradoxes. As such I would like to discuss them with people who have been thinking about them for... a while. How long have you been considering this line of thought? |
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Traditionalist Evangelist
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Mar 25, 2008
(47 days and 5 hours ago)
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How long have you been considering this line of thought? Your out of luck,I just started finishing this idea in my head a few weeks ago in my head,and their are still several clinches I am trying to work out.I'd be happy to discuss it anyway if you'd like to. |
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bwgl
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Mar 25, 2008
(46 days and 23 hours ago)
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"This would not be true perfection.For if this was true,the person would be very capable of sinning and disobeying,unless we don't have freewill in heaven." This would not be true perfection FOR YOU. Like I said before, if you were perfect you would have already understood WHAT actions are prefect and what are not. You would, simply, avoid the imperfect actions altogether. It doesn't take the trail and error method you're suggest it would take once one reaches heaven. Also, what you're trying to say is that free-will and sin are associated with one another, but this is false. Anyone who has read the first few books of the New Testament would know that Jesus WAS a perfect being made into flesh. He committed NO sins whatsoever, and yet he still had free will. "If the garden of eden was truly perfect," Dude, to be honest, GO BACK and read the actual creation of Eden yourself. It's in the first couple of chapters of Genesis. Trust me, you will not see anything saying "And Eden was perfect", nor was there any indication that it was supposed to be perfect to begin with. I still don't understand your ideas of absolute perfection because you keep switching them up so often it's confusing. |
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Forte Lambardi
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Mar 25, 2008
(46 days and 18 hours ago)
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