But, at least, you didn't openly reject Him. At least you're not dead set on think God isn't real.

Aye, the answer never comes soon enough. What I often do is pray for an answer and leave it in the air. 85% the answer hits me like a sack of potatoes at a completely random time.

"I'm going to hell."

God judges according to our actions (Revelations) and our judgment to others (Matthew).

Probably the simplest thing you can do is find out what is true ACCORDING TO YOU. You can do this by find a point. If you can back it up with some evidence (I mean pretty good evidence) chances are there might be a bit of validity to what you're believing

our judgment to others

What do you mean?

Whatever method we use to judge others, He will use to judge us

Matthew 7: 1, 2

"Stop judging that you may not be judged; for with what judgment you are judging, you will be judged, and with the measuring out, they will measure out to you."

Oh Immaculate Blood, Immaculate blood! Is it nobler of the mind to endure the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune, Or to take arms against a sea of troubles, And by opposing end them? To die: to sleep; No more; and by a sleep to say we end!!

Your troubles seem enterminable not because they are consistent, but because they are recurring, and they will continue to recur as long as there is hypocrisy in religion. See, the desciples, they were lucky. Dispite the trials and suffering, the inverse crucifictions, the boiling alive, they knew what was right because they have seen the face of God.

But there is indeed invaluable wisdom in the words of Christ: "blessed are those who have not seen and yet beleive." Indeed, the noblest of all men are those who find the bath of righteousness independent of the fluctuations of social influence. Noble are thsoe who find success independant of a common method. through Hamlet's insanity, he is revoked by others, yet he is the msot noble for haved suffered through his contemplating decisions before acting upon them. God seems to be a chap that only cares about the end. For as you beleive, in the end, all will be rectified. Your present indecisiveness and faultering is irrelevant. the fact that you're not like me means that you have stayed true to your path, you've merely gone down some stupid roads, yet always traversed the brush to find the one you decided to walk in the beginning and will continue to walk until the end.

Don't worry. You are doomed to be an imbecile.

Thanks Forte. I like that verse a lot actually. I suppose that the thing that bothers me is that maybe I don't do enough for Him. Like, I don't obey everything like I should. In this world especially, how am I to do everything holy and right?

Matthew 7:21-23: 21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Because I like to read fantasy I'm not following God's law? Many christians will argue that fantasy and wizards and such are evil. Many will say the same with rock bands and videogames. What, I'm supposed to give up every hobby that I enjoy? I just don't know what to do. It sounds selfish but..that's like giving up my life. And along with it practicly everything that I own because in some way it displeases God..I'm so lost. I don't know what to do man..I don't. I read one verse and agree then I read another and it seems to say the opposite and so I don't know which to follow or if it's a complete contradiction..

You are doomed to be an imbecile.

Thanks for your kind words.

What, I'm supposed to give up every hobby that I enjoy? I just don't know what to do. It sounds selfish but..that's like giving up my life.

Is that really any more honorable than asking me to give up fornication? I happen to like fornication. Now with the advent of condoms and HIV tests it basically hurts no one except God. And Jesus loves suffering for my sins, so there everyones happy.

Thanks for your kind words.

You're welcome. just don't take it out of context like most people would. :)

Sigh. Maybe I just need to sleep on it. What are your beliefs Recal? Do you believe in God/do you think that He exists or do you think that we make Him up?

I remember being in a state of limbo for a few painful years. I kept trying to grip and kept on falling. Eventually I reached a level where I decided I would save the deepest questions for later in life. Then after speaking to an atheist online and now long term friend, my views were challenged. He took my certainty and presented a world that I had been missing all along. I first admitted to being agnostic, till soon enough I realised I was only kidding myself. Then I said it, ‘I’m an atheist’. No flames burst at me feed, no thunder was struck. I was left in a new world where there are questions that not a single person on earth can answer. Some people fear this world. I would rather live it to the full.

IB, if something is bothering me, I set aside a time each day when I can think over it. Don't do it in bed because you won't get to sleep, but find a time when there is nothing demanded of you. I don't recommend sitting in your room and pondering because, if you're anything like me, you'll feel like you're wasting time and you'll want to get up and do something else. I think about whatever is bothering me when I'm in the shower, but anywhere where you're just going through the motions is good.

Don't try and convince yourself of what you believe you need, but think hard first about what the problem are, then what the solutions are, and lastly how you can achieve those solutions effectively. It works for me.

(James 1:5-6) "So, if any one of YOU is lacking in wisdom, let him keep on asking God, for he gives generously to all and without reproaching; and it will be given him. 6 But let him keep on asking in faith, not doubting at all, for he who doubts is like a wave of the sea driven by the wind and blown about."

(Proverbs 3:5-6) "Trust in Jehovah with all your heart and do not lean upon your own understanding. In all your ways take notice of him, and he himself will make your paths straight."

(John 17:3) "This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ."

Faith is a fruit of God’s spirit, and God gladly gives his spirit to those who seek it. (Gal. 5:22; Luke 11:13) So persons without faith are not seeking that spirit, or they are doing so for a wrong purpose or are resisting its operation in their lives. Many things can influence this. Keep searchng with sincerety, do not give up for that is the goal of the adversary is it not?

Peace

Immaculte..there is nothing wrong with you. What you are going through is called "maturing".

You are thinking for yourself and beginning to do what you need to do and that is asking questions about things you were told you had to believe in if for no other reason than because your parents and society "said so"

Instead of expecting some vague ghost in the sky to tell you what to do and what to think..you now need to do your own soul searching..be brave enough to step out of that shell you were told you must hide in and you will realize that there is nothing to fear.

There is no hell other than the one you put yourself in via your own thoughts. Conversely there is no exclusive club in the sky called "heaven" where only those who meet strict standards can join.

The truth shows itself in many ways...religion is a tool and that is all it is; it is not a reality and you are outgrowing that tool.

You should be happy that you are experiencing such growth..don't fear it..what you are experiencing is a great sign..you are striking out on your own spiritually.

(James 1:5-6) "So, if any one of YOU is lacking in wisdom, let him keep on asking God, for he gives generously to all and without reproaching; and it will be given him. 6 But let him keep on asking in faith, not doubting at all, for he who doubts is like a wave of the sea driven by the wind and blown about."

A good supporting quote. You will find that when you seek, you will find nothing. You may keep chasing answers yet they will not be given to you by any divine being. Doubt and questioning is an important part of our lives and a foolish thing to ignore. Faith is foolish. Where there is lack of answers and lack of logic, there is doubt. Where there is doubt there is questioning. Where there is questioning, there are answers and truth.

I don't really see the logic in punishing those who don't "believe" in a "God". You can be a great person, but if you don't believe your screwed.

Listen IB, keep questioning your faith. If it is "the Truth", then it should be able to be innerant. If you find any fallacies in your faith, seek answers. In the end, you shall find your own path. I was EXACTLY like you; now I'm an atheistic agnostic. I am ALWAYS looking for the possibility of a Creator; I just don't believe in the Catholic, Muslim, or any other religious God. I merely believe there is indeed a higher power out there; I just don't know if it cares about us, has the same principles and standards we have given It, or whatever.

It is ok to question. However, one must not keep questioning "why?" but rather discover the answer on your own.

Where there is lack of answers and lack of logic, there is doubt.

I have found IB that God reveals the truth to his people. I have never had a question that the Bible does not answer. Hell is the grave. (Eccl 9:5, 10; Eze 18:4; John 11:11-14) How can a God who is love harmonize with eternal torture? (1John 4:8) It cannot. Why? Because it is a lie. Our beliefs must be founded in Scripture-all of it. If what we beleive is proved wrong we need to reject the wrong view and take up the right just as Bible characters did in the past like Paul. (Gal 1:13, 14; Acts 3:17, 19, 26:4-6. Then God can bless our efforts giving us the understanding and confidence we need for a strong faith enduring faith. (Phil 4:6,7)

Peace

IB you will not go to hell if you are truly searching for truth. You are part of the Church by desire. No good person who truly seeks for the truth but does not find it will be going to hell. Hell was made for the Devil, his angels, and the followers on earth. Satan knew God, and knew what had to be done but yet chose to oppose God. It was his will to oppose God. If you lead a good life and are trying to find God honestly with pure intentions, then you will not go to the same place as a willful unbeliever who knows what to do but does not do it, or a believer who still chooses to sin without remorse for their actions, and a firm purpose to amend their life.

The path to God is not easy. If we read the Bible and the lives of the Saints we can see this. Was Gods only begotten Son given a easy life? Nope not at all. We must be strong and always move toward God. You wanted to know where to look for truth. Well the Pillar of truth is the Church! No Bible Christian can deny that because the Bible is gives witness to it. Find the Church and you will find Christ.

Thanks guys. I guess the best thing to do is to not give in to defeat without knowing the whole Truth.

"Many christians will argue that fantasy and wizards and such are evil."

Wizardry isn't something acceptable to God. This is all I know, and this idea was made in the Old Testament. I would assume it still holds true in the New Testament (although I haven't seen it just yet).

"Many will say the same with rock bands and videogames. What, I'm supposed to give up every hobby that I enjoy?"

It's pretty easy to say something is evil without explaining why it is using the Bible. I hear people say this all the time. Truly, if God wanted you to give up those things He would have simply taken them from you; "The Lord giveth the lord taketh away."

"...because in some way it displeases God.."

From what I understand, the things that displease God do not, normally, benefit you in any way.

"I read another and it seems to say the opposite and so I don't know which to follow or if it's a complete contradiction.."

Read the Bible from start to finish. There are conditions and statements in previous that may clarify what you think is a contradiction. Alot of the time I see contradictions because I have not read previous chapters, or I have not read future chapters that explain some of the same principles in different terms.

What Sav quoted for you will be very helpful. If you need help understanding the Scriptures, you must ask Him for guidence. Don't rely on other men to give you a interpretation: God can give the most accurate one if you LET HIM. Just remember, the answers don't come right away, but if you do believe the answer will come it will.

"There are conditions and statements in previous..."

Should be:

"There are conditions and statements in previous Books (of the Bible)..."

It's pretty easy to say something is evil without explaining why it is using the Bible. I hear people say this all the time. Truly, if God wanted you to give up those things He would have simply taken them from you; "The Lord giveth the lord taketh away."

Oh, that is just not true...

"Oh, that is just not true..."

Deny it if you wish.

What Sav quoted for you will be very helpful. If you need help understanding the Scriptures, you must ask Him for guidence. Don't rely on other men to give you a interpretation: God can give the most accurate one if you LET HIM. Just remember, the answers don't come right away, but if you do believe the answer will come it will.

Sorry Forte but The Church is the final authority (Mt 18:17-18; 1 Tim 3:15) She is the authentic interpreter of Scripture, not me or you. . The Jews believed that Moses' writings were inspired because of the tradition and the authority God put over them, who said that Moses' writings were inspired. It was therefore an authority outside of Moses' writings that determined Moses' writings were inspired. Just like how the Catholic Church was the authority which determined what scriptures were inspired from the Old and New Testament to give us a compiled book called The Holy Bible. This authority to determine such things is why we have the Revelation of John rather than the Revelation of Peter which was a heretical scripture that was circulated back then. The Church deemed it as uninspired therefore it was not place in the Canon. The Bible is a product of the Church, the Church is not a product of the Bible. This fact proves the need for a visible Church, and the Churches authority!

See we need an authority outside of Scripture to tell us what Scriptures are inspired, and what they mean (unless you can find me a chapter in the Bible that has the canon listed? Or tell me why God would give two protestants two completely different and conflicting interpretations from the same verse(s)?). Moses was the one who infallibly interpreted the Scriptures for the people. The people didn't go off (like Protestants) and interpret the Scriptures on their own. They were under the authority of Moses. This was the function of Moses in the Old Covenant, and is the function of Peter (and his succesors) in the New Covenant. A infallible book must have a infallible interpreter which is and always will be the Church.

"Sorry Forte but The Church is the final authority (Mt 18:17-18; 1 Tim 3:15) She is the authentic interpreter of Scripture, not me or you. "

Um, Lamb, that's why I said ask GOD since He will help us far more than any other man might. I am not saying that The Church cannot be relied on, but you should rely more on GOD rather than other men. In a sense, while you're in Church you ARE asking God in His holy place.

Also, Matthew has nothing to do with the Church. Although, one can assume that congregation means a gathering of religious people when can mean, simply, a gathering.

As for Timothy, that's the only verse that pleads your case. Yes, we ought to conduct ourselves in the Household of God, but then we would need to discern that the people we are associating with are, in fact, the household of God. I think you already know that people can pick and choose teachings and create new ones (which is really bad). If you read one of the Thessalonian chapters (I forget which one) you would know to test all things and hold onto what is true; thus, I said you should not rely on man so much, but rather, you should rely on God more (since He won't lie to your face).

"The Jews believed that Moses' writings were inspired because of the tradition and the authority God put over them, who said that Moses' writings were inspired."

The Bible only became a product of the Church once a Church decides to try and pass judgment on it. If I remember correctly, alot of the disciples were trying to do the will of God rather than the will of a Church. A Church is a congregation of people claiming to following God (I say claiming because you really don't know if one is following in word only or in both word and action.

I don't think the Church is insignificant, but I am saying you should question men all the same. Being in a church congregation doesn't, automatically, validate any and all teachings spread throughout that congregation, nor does it validate any action that the congregation takes until we are able to discern the fact that God + Jesus are with the congregation to start with (since they, not man, are heads of any congregation).

A church cannot be a pillar and support of the truth if it is not based upon God's word which is the truth that they are supposed to support in the first place. (1Tim3:15; John 17:17) Does God attach himself to those who do not represent his truth, from his Word? On what are a religions teachings based? Are they from God, or are they largely from men? (2 Tim. 3:16; Mark 7:7) Only the Bible itself can be the authority and benchmark for that. Claims of divine appointment mean nothing if those who make them are not obedient to God and Christ.

Peace

"A church cannot be a pillar and support of the truth if it is not based upon God's word which is the truth that they are supposed to support in the first place."

Exactly; thus, I say to not rely on the Church too much. You're making a safer bet (at least to me) if you place it with God.

Exactly; thus, I say to not rely on the Church too much. You're making a safer bet (at least to me) if you place it with God.

Not rely on the Church? The Church is the source of all Gods truth! The Bible cannot give authority to itself. In the Bible it says all scripture is inspiried by God but it does not list what books are the inspiried scriptures. Who decides then what are the inspiried scriptures and what aren't ? Well the Church which God founded and the Bible gives witness to has this mission! Could one look toward a invisible Church for this? No not at all. The Church must be visible so the faithful know where to go for the final say. This authority was given to the Church by Christ to Peter when he gave Peter the authorty to bind and loosen. This is an authorty which is usless if the Church was not a visible organization. The Holy Spirit who is the Advocate Jesus said would guide the Church to all truth does so through the very people Christ calls to be the members of it! This is what's hypocritical of the Prtotestants stance. They say the Church was not visible and not to rely on it yet they get this interpretation and teaching from their own visible organization (Church). This is like when Protestants claim tradition is not needed when no where in the bible is the canon listed. The Canon comes from Tradition, and the very fact that you use something that came from tradition while saying tradition is not needed is a contradiction! The diference between Catholics and Protestants is Catholics get Sacred Tradition from the Church which was handed down by the Apostles who got it from God. Protestants use traditions of men who inturn say tradition is not needed while saying they received this from God who apparently contradicts Himself.

Also if you say the Bible was before the Church then you are ignorant of history and common logic. The person who wrote the Scriptures had to have been present before the scriptures could even be writen. This proves the Church was before the Scripture since the Apostles who were Church members wrote them down. How can the Bible come before the ones who wrote it? If the ones who wrote it are members of the Church how could the Church come after? Furthermore when the Bible was not yet completed where did men go to hear the gospel which was spread by word of mouth? The Church my friends! For heavens sake who are Pauls Epistles directed to? They are directed to visible Churches! If Paul is telling Churches how to act then he has authority. Authority which could only be recognized in a visible organization which you claim is not to be relied on! The Church was established before the scriptures were completed, and is proven because the Scriptures themselves are letters directed to already established Churches and their members!

"Not rely on the Church?"

Not rely on the church, TOO MUCH (not do not rely on the church at all).

"Well the Church which God founded"

Indeed, God has founded the Church, but the congregation, ultimately, determines if a particular church is, truly, with God. The only reason why I don't trust the church too much is becuase, solely, it's congregation; thus, I test a church rather than put my faith into one from the get go. Also, if you've read the Bible you should be aware of the fact that our own desires and our own wants can actually obscure the meaning of the Bible and its passages (I am pretty sure I read in the Bible, but I can't find the citation I made on the issue).

". The Holy Spirit who is the Advocate Jesus said would guide the Church to all truth does so through the very people"

But the Holy Spirit cannot lead a person (or group of persons) who have hardened their hearts and closed their minds to Gods' word. They do this by not accepting the fact that their teachings could be incorrect; thus, they get hyper defensive and tend to degrade those who question God. God knows that we, which is normal for a human reaction, tend to not believe something unless it is proven; thus, God proves Himself to be with or without the help of humanity.

"The person who wrote the Scriptures had to have been present before the scriptures could even be writen. "

Not person: persons. If I understand correct, the Bible was translated from a collection of works (or written articles) either by the disciples or people who have had experiences with God and or Jesus Christ. The church was created so that we man worship God our savior, but you can see in the New Testament that some people had different ideas. I hope you recall the incident were Jesus walked into a church to find it being used a place of business by tax collectors. This example, alone, can show that a congregation (congregation in the sense of a gathering of people) misused the Church. This is another reason why I am skeptical of the Church: it's teachings can be misused and leads people astray.

"Also if you say the Bible was before the Church then you are ignorant of history and common logic."

No one said this...

"The Church my friends! For heavens sake who are Pauls Epistles directed to? "

Aside from churches, there were Apostles (such as Jesus) who took it upon themselves to go from land to land speaking to masses of people (I think Paul did this in Corinthians). Churches aren't the only source of learning God's word.

The main thing I am trying to get across (for the second time now) is to TEST THE CHURCH rather than be quick to believe it. I say not to rely on the church for everything because you will not be able to act on the teachings yourself, nor you will be able to learn on your own (when you can't count on the church all the time).

Also, God expects us to preach the Gospel (2Ti 4: 2, 5; 1Co 9:16) and we certainly can't do that if we do not, at some point, take it upon ourselves to take time ON OUR OWN to learn.

"...God our savior..."

Should be:

"...God and our Savior (AKA Jesus Christ)..."

"...upon ourselves to take time ON OUR OWN to learn."

Should be expanded to say:

"upon ourselves to take time ON OUR OWN to learn whilst asking God to give us understanding about the scriptures."

Not rely on the church, TOO MUCH (not do not rely on the church at all).

We must rely on the Church for all doctrine on faith and morals! These are teachings God would never allow his Church to err in no matter how sinful the members are within the Church.

Indeed, God has founded the Church, but the congregation, ultimately, determines if a particular church is, truly, with God. The only reason why I don't trust the church too much is becuase, solely, it's congregation; thus, I test a church rather than put my faith into one from the get go. Also, if you've read the Bible you should be aware of the fact that our own desires and our own wants can actually obscure the meaning of the Bible and its passages (I am pretty sure I read in the Bible, but I can't find the citation I made on the issue).

Yes God founded a Church (Organization) which has a common Faith (religion). This Organization (True Church) has four marks. The True Church is one, holy, universal, and apostolic. Christ intended to be one; therefore the True Church must be One. Its members must be united in doctrine, in worship. Christ said: "if a kingdom is divided against itelf, the kigdom cannot stand" (Mark 3:24) "There shall be one fold and one Shepherd" (John 10:16).

Christ intended his Church to be Holy: therefore the True Church must be Holy. It must teach a holy doctrine in faith and morals, because its Founder is holy. It must provide the means for its members to lead a holy life. " Beware of false prophets who come to you in sheeps clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves. By their fruits you will know them. Do men gather graps from thorns, or figs from thistles? Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit...Therefore by their fruits you will know them" (Matt 7:15-17, 20) Holy doctrine is unchanging like the truth never changes. Any Church which has had doctrines that have flip flopped on their postion can not say they have the Truth! Their postion might change!

Christ promised His Church the gift of miracles, a sign of holiness: "Amen, amen, I say to you, he who believes in me, the works that I do he also shall do, and greater than these he shall do" (John 14:12) He said: You therefore are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect" (Matt 5:48) Countless miracles have been from the Catholic Church.

Chris intended His Church to be universal, that is,catholic; and therfore the True Church must be Universal, or Catholic. It must be for all peoples of every nation for all times and teach the same faith everywhere. Christ commanded his disciples: "God therefore and make disciples of all nations"(Matt 28:19) Go into the whole world, and preach the Gospel to every creature" (Mark 16:15). You shall be witnessfor me...even to the very ends of the earth (Acts 1:8)

Christ intended His Church to be propagated by His Apostles; and therefore the True Church must be Apostolic. It must be the Church propagated by the Apostles. Its rulers must derive their office and authority by lawful succession from the Apostles. It must hold intact the doctrine and tradtionas of the Apostles, to whome Christ gabe authority to teach.

It was Christ Himself, and no one else, who chose His Apostles and disciples, and commanded them to teach His doctrines to all the world. St. Paul says: "Even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a Gospel to you other than that which we have preached to you, let him be anathema" (Gal 1:8) St. Paul himself refers to the Church as "built upon the foundation of the Apostles (Eph 2:20)

The Catholic Church holds these Marks and has always held them admits the scandel that has attacked her. But we can see from the very beginning that this perfect Church was set upon imperfect beings...nonetheless God would direct it. Peter denied Chirst three times, the other 10 Apostles deserted Christ during His Passion, Paul before becoming a Christian was a Jew who approved the stoning of early Christians yet all these men through the power of God were able to write infallible Gospels and Epistles and Preach infallible doctrines. Some of which were writen and some of which were handed down oraly.

Not person: persons. If I understand correct, the Bible was translated from a collection of works (or written articles) either by the disciples or people who have had experiences with God and or Jesus Christ. The church was created so that we man worship God our savior, but you can see in the New Testament that some people had different ideas. I hope you recall the incident were Jesus walked into a church to find it being used a place of business by tax collectors. This example, alone, can show that a congregation (congregation in the sense of a gathering of people) misused the Church. This is another reason why I am skeptical of the Church: it's teachings can be misused and leads people astray.

Yes Forte I understand the Bible was writen by many, not just one. Also your example does not work. The teaching did not lead people astray the people chose not to follow the teaching of God which the Church held. This is what lead them astray. God would no more let doctrinal err into his Church as he would in the Bible. This is because the Church is the infalible interpreter of God infallible Word.

Aside from churches, there were Apostles (such as Jesus) who took it upon themselves to go from land to land speaking to masses of people (I think Paul did this in Corinthians). Churches aren't the only source of learning God's word.

Christ is the Head of the Church and the Apostles were the first members of the Church so the Church was the only source at has been. It is the chef source for learning Gods Word for the Church has both Sacred Tradition, and Sacred Scripture. The True Church has held the teaching from the Apostles weather they were oral or writen.

The main thing I am trying to get across (for the second time now) is to TEST THE CHURCH rather than be quick to believe it. I say not to rely on the church for everything because you will not be able to act on the teachings yourself, nor you will be able to learn on your own (when you can't count on the church all the time).

How can you not count on the Church all the time? It has was founded by Christ who promised the Gates of hell will never prevail againts it. His promises to you is that you can always count on it. You can always count of the Church this is why its called the Pillar of Truth. The Church will always be visible to teach the faithful and carry on the mission given her by Christ.

Also, God expects us to preach the Gospel (2Ti 4: 2, 5; 1Co 9:16) and we certainly can't do that if we do not, at some point, take it upon ourselves to take time ON OUR OWN to learn.

Did the Apostles learn on their own? No they were instructed and taught the meaning of the OT scriptures by Christ Himself. Did the Apostles leave their disciples and successors to learn on their own? No the Apostle taught Christs teaching and the correct interpretation to them, and those men taught the men they appointed. Does the eye look at the hand and say it does not need it? The Church is the bride of Christ. This Church is the Catholic Church.

"These are teachings God would never allow his Church to err in no matter how sinful the members are within the Church."

Indeed, but one must discern the idea that the CONGREGATION THEMSELVES are also practicing the teachings that are true to God and to Christ. This what I have been saying and keep saying. Once again, I AM NOT discrediting the church (despite the implications I've been making).

"Yes God founded a Church (Organization) which has a common Faith (religion). This..."

:) Something we both agree on.

"Their postion might change!"

Indeed, this is why I continually say to test the churches you come into rather than full-heartedly believe in something you have no knowledge of.

"Catholic."

Not sure why you have to include labels that men have created. As far as I understood, these labels were created by men. If Jesus wanted create a universal church there would be no such thing as a "denomination". I see denominations and Christians flock together becuase the Christians themselves feel more comfortable with their own denomination or their own classification (which perhaps display the idea that we have to classify everything). I don't care what you'd like to call the church, but the purpose of it should be to UNITE ALL FOLLOWERS of God (regardless of what denomination what race, and what kind of person they are).

"The teaching did not lead people astray the people chose not to follow the teaching of God which the Church held"

I am not saying the teachings of the Bible led people astray. I am saying that those who corrupt the teachings and have altered it (so it becomes false) have led people astray. This becomes especially problematic when they are dominant figures of the church (such as priests).

"This is what lead them astray. God would no more let doctrinal err into his Church as he would in the Bible. "

Indeed, this is assuming that the congregation actually has God and Jesus Christ as their head. God, of course, would not allow corruptness to last amongst His church given that the congregation doesn't become hard-headed and forget who is really in charge of the Church (God not man). Like I said, it's quite possible for those who THINK they're preaching the Gospel to do so for long periods of time without even being detected as false (or the people who are preaching don't even realize it themselves).

"How can you not count on the Church all the time?"

You count on GOD more than you count on the church. I do this myself. I rely on my church now since it has proven itself to be with God + Jesus Christ. Jesus' promises are good and hold true always (as does God's), but I am talking about the Congregation. If it does not uphold the Word of God, it does not make known the promises of Jesus + God, and it does preform the duties that a church should do, then it just a shell of what a church ought to be; thus, I am skeptical of churches that claim to do the will of God until they've proven that they actually do in action, in word, and in deed.

I understand why you trust the Church because of it's affiliation with Jesus + God (which are people who NEVER LIE TO YOU), but this assuming that the congregation of the church adheres the teachings of God and Jesus Christ.

"Did the Apostles learn on their own? No they were instructed and taught the meaning of the OT scriptures by Christ Himself. "

I never said the Apostles learned on their own. Also, I added the correct to reflect that idea ("...ON OUR OWN to learn whilst asking God to give us understanding about the scriptures.") becuase I believe one cannot, simply, expect to understand the Gospel by himself/herself: god offers invaluable guidence for those who seek it.

Take note I did not say we must learn on our own all the time.

Me: "Yes God founded a Church (Organization) which has a common Faith (religion). This..."

Forte: ":) Something we both agree on."

From what I have read I don't think we do.

Indeed, this is why I continually say to test the churches you come into rather than full-heartedly believe in something you have no knowledge of.

I have which is why I'm Catholic. All protestant weather Luthers, Mormon, or JWs cannot provide me with a history of their interpretations. This is important because we can see that the Scriptures can be interpreted in many ways. Thus one must conclude that Christs teachings which are found in the true interpretation of the scriptures must have spaned history as well. Not one Protestant Church can give me the history of their interpretation which dates back to the Apostles. Not even from their own Church sources can they do this. Yet the Catholic Church can traces its interpretation to the desciples of the Apostles, thus the Apostles themselves and Christ! All protestant doctrine is nonexistent for 1500 years until the protestant revoult!

"Catholic." Not sure why you have to include labels that men have created.

Catholic means universal Forte. I don't know if you knew that. Pluse the first time in recorded (mind you recorded history) this title was spoken 110ad from Ignatius who was a disciple of the Apostle John.

As far as I understood, these labels were created by men.

The Bible was created by men Forte. See the labels from the Church and the doctrine from the church are created by men under the direction of the Holy Spirit. Just like how the Bible was created by men under the direction of the Holy Spirit.

If Jesus wanted create a universal church there would be no such thing as a "denomination".

True and there were no denominations until the protestant revoult Forte. Before the protestant revoult if you wanted to hear the Gospel you would go to the Catholic Church. If you wanted to learn Gods Word you would go to the Catholic Church. If you wanted to attend Easter Service you would go to the Catholic Church. This is because protestants didn't exist because their doctrines didn't exist, and thus no protestant Churches existed. It was only Catholic, Catholic, and Catholic!

I see denominations and Christians flock together becuase the Christians themselves feel more comfortable with their own denomination or their own classification (which perhaps display the idea that we have to classify everything). I don't care what you'd like to call the church, but the purpose of it should be to UNITE ALL FOLLOWERS of God (regardless of what denomination what race, and what kind of person they are).

You talk about unity and its importance and yet you support teachings and doctrines which divide Christians not unite them. Look at when these denominations started forming. Then look at what these denominations hold as doctrine. Then ask yourself why do I follow the doctrines that are responcible for dividing so many Christians! Then ask yourself why you don't follow the Church which was ONE CHURCH uniting all people under ONE FAITH and started doing this 1500 years before Protestants and their houndreds of thousand of denominations even existed! Take time and reflect on that Forte. Ask how can you achive unity by following doctrines which never allow it.

I am not saying the teachings of the Bible led people astray.

Not saying you did!

I am saying that those who corrupt the teachings and have altered it (so it becomes false) have led people astray.

Yes look at history and notice the time line when people started going astray and mulitple denominations of "Christians" started poping up everywhere.

Indeed, this is assuming that the congregation actually has God and Jesus Christ as their head. God, of course, would not allow corruptness to last amongst His church given that the congregation doesn't become hard-headed and forget who is really in charge of the Church (God not man). Like I said, it's quite possible for those who THINK they're preaching the Gospel to do so for long periods of time without even being detected as false (or the people who are preaching don't even realize it themselves).

This is why I'm Catholic. None of the doctrines are false. All are from Sacred Scripture, and Sacred Tradition which has been handed down from Christ to His apostles, and their successors. This can be seen in the fact that not one Catholic doctrine has been changed in 2000 years and counting.

You count on GOD more than you count on the church.

God is in the Church Forte! If God can always be counted on and He resides in the Church at all times then the Church can be counted on. Even during dark times and admits scandle the Churches doctrines never changed to fit corrupt members agenda. This is because the teachings are from God and are protected by God who is always present in His Church!

I do this myself. I rely on my church now since it has proven itself to be with God + Jesus Christ. Jesus' promises are good and hold true always (as does God's), but I am talking about the Congregation. If it does not uphold the Word of God, it does not make known the promises of Jesus + God, and it does preform the duties that a church should do, then it just a shell of what a church ought to be; thus, I am skeptical of churches that claim to do the will of God until they've proven that they actually do in action, in word, and in deed.

I'm skeptical to. Especially when I realized that if I wanted to be protestant I would have to accept a Church and teachings which have not been present throughout history and thus has been absent not doing the will of God in action, word, or deed. It would mean I would have to ignore the Church that has been always present carrying on Gods mission to preach to every creature and make disciples in all nations. I would have to ignore the authority of the very Church wiched gave us the compiled canon for the Bible we have today under the direction of the Holy Spirit. I would have to accept my protestant canon which has been changed many times because of private interpretation a doctrine I would have to accept if I become protestant. I would have to ignore that before this change in canon started happening in protestant Bibles that the early protestant Bibles had the same canon as the Catholics. I would have to ignore the Church which instituted doctrines and practices that some protestants have taken from. I would have to ignore the fact that nowhere in history or in any protestant church I would be joining could they trace their beliefs back to the Apostles. I would have to ignore the Church that could. I would have to ignore 1500 year of of history of the Christian faith, which for those 1500 years was one Catholic faith. I would have to ignore that my protestant doctrines are responcible for the houndreds of thousands of denominations which has divided all Christians. I would have to ignore that fact that while I want to be part of the solution, I'm following doctrines which are responcible for the problem, thus making me the problem.

Yes to be protestant I would have to ignore much. I hope you reflect on this.

"From what I have read I don't think we do."

Apparently, it's not clear what I am talking about (mostly becuase I am not being very coherent with my argument).

When you say The Church I assume you mean the collection of all Churches ever made. I agree with you on the fact that The Church was founded on sound principals, but the CONGREGATION must also uphold those same principles otherwise that specific congregation's church does not have God or Jesus as their head; thus, that church cannot be trusted. I am sorry if my argument came off as I don't trust the Church itself, but what I was trying to say is that I don't trust the CONGREGATION of a Church (would would also be not trusting a church since the congregation is apart of the Church).

"I have which is why I'm Catholic"

That would explain the root of our disagreements. I've noticed that Catholics are more devote to churches than Protestants are.

"All protestant weather Luthers, Mormon, or JWs cannot provide me with a history of their interpretations"

To be honest with you, I could actually care less about the history of the scripture. What is important, at least to me, is the ability to be able to carry out the commandments of God stated in the Bible. When you are in final judgment God isn't going to give you quiz over the history of the scriptures. Although knowing the history of the scriptures is beneficial (to a degree I cannot comprehend), I still don't see how it would make you one of God's followers if you cannot even practice the Commandments of God (assuming you don't know the Commandments and only focused on the history of scriptures).

"God is in the Church Forte!"

THIS IS ASSUMING that the congregation are letting God run the Church like He ought to. You continue to say God is in the Church, but that idea is reflected in the congregation of that Church.

"I follow the doctrines that are responcible for dividing so many Christians!"

Omg, we clearly aren't listening to one another. I am going to stop conversating because neither of us are listening to one another. You keep saying things like "you don't follow the church" when I made ZERO indication that I do not follow it. Unless you're saying God's doctrine is separating many Christians (which is what I am following) you can't say your doctrine does not separate Christians. You also missed the entire point of the denomination rant I went on. Denominations mean nothing to God. God judges us according to what we do and how we judge.

Let's just let this conversation die: we're not getting anywhere.